Starting problems with Honda NSC Vision 50

Hi,

After getting bored repairing old Peugeot Kisbee, I bought a 2015 model Vision with only 2650 km to my son. Now, some 500 km later it won't start.

Couple of weeks ago my son said the engine is waking up only after several trials. Yesterday I changed the spark plug, washed the scooter and made a 10 km ride and it was working OK, although had to start several times before the engine started running. Later in the evening is didn't start anymore, battery run empty and I had to pick up the scooter with a trailer. Most of the problems with Kisbee were related to carburetor or ignition and I thought buying Honda with fuel injection would save my time from repairs every now and then, but...

In Finland Vision is a margin model and not very many stories about it can be found from forums. I guess that in the UK there are more those in the traffic. Any experiences or suggestions what could be the reason? Of course I have to check the spark first. The battery needs also some charging now but it is located behind the front body panel which makes the charging a bit difficult. Is there any tricks to charge it without removing the front panel? I think someone once said it can be done without removing it, but there is nothing about it in the owners manual. And no Haynes manual from Vision available either.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Kind regards,
Seagear

 

Some updates as a note to myself in case I forgot how to remove the front panel to access the battery. The procedure is shown quite well in this short video

Yesterday I tried to start the engine after the scooter had been over night in a warm garage, but with no success. After removing the front panel, I connected my CTek charger to the battery (a new one installed in March) and started to charge it. About half an hour later, it tried to start again. 3-4 attempts but no success. The sound of the fuel pump was "weak". Couple of hours later I went to the garage again. CTek showed that the battery was fully charged and after turning the power on, I noticed a clear change in the sound that the fuel pump makes when turning on the power. A short press of the start button and the engine was running immediately.

So my conclusion is that the reason for engine not to start was 1) lack of fuel caused by 2) low pressure from the fuel pump caused by 3) too low battery voltage. If the problem recur, I try to change the low cost MTX-brand battery to another which gives more amps when starting. I'll also install "permanent charging cables under the hood" https://www.ctek.com/products/vehicle/connect-eyelet-m10 to make battery charging easier.

 

Nice work. Be interested to hear how you get on.

 

I would advise against a biltema battery (I think you have biltema in Finland?) I'm a big fan of these motobatt batteries. The quad something or other is genius.
Oh and put a dab of grease on those little clips on the front panel....
(I worked at a main dealer here in Norway, I've put a lot of those together!)

 

Yes, we have Biltema stores in Finland but the brand is also familiar of its "Biltema quality". And that is not a praise. So I've bought many things from Biltema, e.g. an anchor to my boat, but I don't rely on their batteries.

The current battery is the one they put in in the bike dealer when I bought Honda. I do have a Motobatt-battery in my Suzuki V-Strom and I've been satisfied with it. Have to check if this fits to scooter if I have to buy a new one. https://www.motonet.fi/fi/tuote/900496/Motobatt-mp-akku-12V-7Ah-MB55U

 

I think it's a 5ah battery in the Honda...

God I can't read a word of Finnish...
Or saamisk...
Can most Finnish people read sammisk? Like how Norwegian and Swedish/Danish is? You know, it's different but similar?

 

No we can't. Actually Estonian language is much closer to Finnish than Sami language.
Swedish is easy for me, but Danish or Norwegian are not.
As Danish is Swedish "spoken with a hot potato in your mouth".

But Google Translator helps if needed:

Käyttövalmis Motobatt AGM-akku moottoripyöriin, mopoihin ja pienkoneisiin.
• Jännite 12 V
• Kapasiteetti 7 Ah
• Kylmäkäynnistysvirta 90 A
• Pituus 135 mm
• Leveys 60 mm
• Korkeus 130 mm
• Akussa on neljä napaa mikä helpottaa itse akun sekä lisälaitteiden esim. navigaattorin taikka virranulosoton asentamista
• AGM-rakenteen ansiosta akku kestää erittäin hyvin tärinää jonka ansiosta Motobatt on erinomainen valinta myös moottorikelkkoihin ja mönkijöihin
• Pitkän käyttöiän takaamiseksi on akkua ladattava ennen käyttöönottoa ja talvisäilytyksen aikana tarkoituksenmukaisella älylaturilla, esim. CTEK XS 0.8 tuotenumerolla 45-5515
• Tällä akulla voidaan korvata seuraavat JIS-tyyppinumerot: 12N5.5-3B ja 12N5.5-4A
• Sisältää lyijyä

Klar til å bruke Motobatt AGM-batteri for motorsykler, mopeder og små maskiner.
• Spenning 12 V
• Kapasitet 7 Ah
• Kaldstartstrøm 90 A
• Lengde 135 mm
• Bredde 60 mm
• Høyde 130 mm
• Batteriet har fire poler, noe som gjør det enklere å installere selve batteriet og tilbehør som navigator eller stikkontakt.
• Takket være AGM-designet er batteriet veldig motstandsdyktig mot vibrasjoner, noe som gjør Motobatt til et utmerket valg for snøscootere og terrengkjøretøyer.
• For å sikre lang levetid, må batteriet lades før bruk og under vinterlagring med en passende smartlader, f.eks. CTEK XS 0.8 med artikkelnummer 45-5515
• Dette batteriet kan erstatte følgende JIS-type tall: 12N5.5-3B og 12N5.5-4A
• Inneholder bly

 

Oooh it's a 7ah replacement for a 5ah. I should know that, I sell them.... Duh....
I wonder if Swedish to Danish people is like "Danish without the potato"?!
I always say samisk sounds like Welsh to British people....

 

Still hard starting. It might be possible that there is something wrong with ignition or fuel injection. I’m not sure if there is a fuel filter that could be clogged. When the engine is running it runs very fine and purrs like a cat, only starting is weak occasionally. Any Vision owners on the forum?

 

....and counting. Yesterday morning Honda started after three trials. But when my son came home from a ride and tried to leave again after 15 minutes the engine didn't wake up at all.

I called to the local Honda dealer and they suspected, that problems can be originated from short shelf life of petrol and low usage of the scooter by previous owner. Finnish oil refinery Neste guarantees petrol to last only 3 months. And it causes problems with engines used rarely or periodically (lawn mowers, chainsaws, outboard motors...). I added some Motul fuel system cleaner to the tank but don't have high hopes with it.

Personally I think that it is just the fuel pump which is broken. When switching the power on the fuel pump makes noise sometimes and some times not. I guess it is not how it should be.

 

Have you tried to disconnect the fuel pipe after the pump to see how fast the fuel is pumped into a container.
Fuel injection need pressure behind it to work smoothly.
Could be the pump, pumps but not enough pressure and as you said blocked filter

 

Fuel will last like 12 months fine. Especially for a moped.
It's probably the fuel pump.
Get the workshop to run the diagnostic codes

 

Yes it does practically, but manufacturer guarantees only 3 months for regular petrol. Any idea why the fuel pump failure has effect only in starting phase? But yes, I have to get the codes read.

 

Found out today, that the fuel pump is dead or at least not working properly. When turning on the power a weak sound comes from "fuel injector" but the pump on the top of the tank remains silent.

I took away the the air filter and injected few drops of gasoline straight to the air inlet. After that the engine started running for couple of seconds. Few more injections and starts and it kept running. So it seems that the fuel pump is only needed for starting phase. Or could it be that the control current for the pump is too low before engine fires? Anyway, new pump costs LOT, so I guess I'll buy a pre-owned from eBay.

https://aijaa.com/52hpGY

https://aijaa.com/PO5hwt

 

Some updates: After discussions with local Honda service, prime suspect now is bad contact / electrical fault somewhere in scooters wiring or connectors. Honda mechanic confirmed that the fuel pump should make noise every time after turning the power key. And that is not what it does atm. My son confirmed that in the beginning it did made noise every time but not lately.

 

Yeah, it primes every time, a sort of bwuuup noise... When they are brand new it starts on the first click of the button and runs through a special start up sequence... I used to work for Honda

 

What I still don't understand is why fuel pump problem has effect on firing only in this case? Once the engine is running, it runs fine and one can drive the scooter normally. And I get it started by injecting some droplets of fuel straight to the air inlet and it continued running. But most of the times when you turn off the engine and try to start again the fuel pump doesn't wake up. Local Honda mechanic said that the wiring and all connectors must be checked one by one to check where there is voltage and where not.

 

Yeah, it must just be a loose wire....

 

I reckon a loose wire or maybe as you squirt fuel in the intake and it starts and runs, maybe could it be electrical, not charging enough to run the pump.
Can you hear the pump running once started ?
Maybe a corroded plug or connector ?

I had a starting problem with the starter on my scooter, and after a new starter and battery still no change, even had 12 volt at the starter.
It was hopeless in winter would sound like a flat battery, so I decided to run new starter main cables, positive (+) and negative (-) cables and all was well.
It now starts ok even at minus 2 degrees

 

No, I cant hear the pump when the engine is running. And the battery was replaced by the dealer before I picked the scooter. But I have a slight hunch, that when the battery charger is connected and battery fully loaded, there are better changes to get the engine running.