I think we need a "Why won't my 50cc scooter to eleventy billion KPH?" sticky thread...

Discussion in 'Comments / Feedback / Suggestions' started by Merlin, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. Mark Emerson Trentham

    Mark Emerson Trentham Well Known Member. Staff Member

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    It's a start........... .
     
  2. showaddydadito

    showaddydadito Falling off since 1976. Strangely cow obsessed

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    It's true.

    We used to have a way to tell them apart. You let them ride a 250 with no training and no test.

    The ones who could do it safely . . . . did it safely.

    The rest . . . . well they either died, or lived with the consequences.

    In my last year at school: Percy died, Tongy died, Cairnsy died, Steve died, Wicker lost a leg, Git McGuire (if memory serves) lost a leg, Ratty lost a leg, Woggs broke an arm or two.

    And Me? I hit a 3 litre capri hard enough to write it off and have been in more or less pain for 38 years.

    Oh I get about ok, I still ride, but the times when it gets bad and I scream with the pain of rolling onto my side in bed so I can piss in a bottle - those are the times that I think the newer regulations may not be perfect, but it's a damn' good job they changed the law.
     
  3. Mark Emerson Trentham

    Mark Emerson Trentham Well Known Member. Staff Member

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    In a way,you're lucky remembering them all is just a blur,too many...some good people,even during our stupid youth- you could recognise the character they'd become irregardless of their 'recklessness.,
    Think for me,what it boils down to,is living with bikes,in relation to your own personal choices,to have the right to make them- without those on high.making those decisions,pretty much based upon looking at no.s on a bit of paper,Human Being's should never be reduced to a no.,cause then we become 'tools' .!. ,
    Will always think the previous way of licencing was better an will always do so,it worked for me........ .
     
  4. Mark Emerson Trentham

    Mark Emerson Trentham Well Known Member. Staff Member

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    Add:-

    an on injuries......
    always lived never too far away,from some of the best hospitals in London,
    Fate,pure luck,guardian angel i'd buy a beer or 20 for,
    F..k knows,an undoubtably never will,just the way things have worked out.....
    makes you wonder if it'd been the same,if those choices had been designated by others................
     
  5. Merlin

    Merlin Old School Biker

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    I agree with Mark 100%.

    I stuffed up big time on an RD200E and at the time, you could ride a 250cc at 17. The power increase couldn't be handled by some, whilst others wanted to show off - there were a lot around my age that died too soon because of this. Cutting 17-year-olds back to 125cc was sensible and helped to cut the carnage.

    I suffer terribly with my left shoulder as I am getting older, due to old bike injuries. The lucky ones are those like us, that get to tell the tales.
     
    Mark Emerson Trentham likes this.
  6. Mark Emerson Trentham

    Mark Emerson Trentham Well Known Member. Staff Member

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    Not neccesarily luck maybe.?,
    instinctive self-preservation.....
    this is something I think you can come to realise,only! as you get older-
    some have a line inside us,we may not realise at the time ,cause it's actually in effect without us even noticing it ,so much so.it's deciding our actions............. .
     
  7. Gemma

    Gemma Captain Spooky

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    It's an interesting argument, though back in the day of the old wobble around the block test and ride a gixxer the next day, few of us did. It had more to do with self preservation and size of bank account, that we moved up the bike ladder slowly. I went from passing the test on a 100 cc to a 500 cc for example before ever riding anything up in the 1200 category. I did know people who went 125 to 600 and it worked out just fine. But people certainly knew through the bike press etc that taking it slowly was the way to live a long time.

    There were stories for sure of the the kid who went and bought a gixxer straight after the test and rode it, self and pillion into a row of parked cars the next day killing himself and girlfriend etc. It did happen. I don't see though why changing the age when this happens actually solves the problem.

    In my humble opinion it is one of those cases where the government attempts to control the accident figures for political gain, whilst the real issue of rider education has been completely ignored. The net result is legal restrictions on one group (younger people) that were not entirely necessary in my opinion.

    To me the core thing was the huge hike in performance and handling abilities of sports bike. It still claims a lot of born again riders, not just novice riders, who think they can handle a 750 but are really not expecting the ballistic performance available from a 750 today.
     
    Mark Emerson Trentham likes this.
  8. Merlin

    Merlin Old School Biker

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    That's the problem, Gemma; how do you find a way to stop the speed of the bike exceeding the talent of the rider? I don't think that there is any easy answer, apart from taking it in small steps until the rider can demonstrate that he or she can handle a bike of such power safely.

    As a Health and Safety Manager where I work, I can state that young people don't perceive hazards and risks in the way that older (mid 20s) people so, it's a matter of maturity.
     
  9. Mark Emerson Trentham

    Mark Emerson Trentham Well Known Member. Staff Member

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    Yep,
    says captain speechless. :) .
     
  10. Mark Emerson Trentham

    Mark Emerson Trentham Well Known Member. Staff Member

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    Might?,have mentioned something along the lines,of early training,
    like long before you foray into your 1st transport experience,
    gives it time to 'sink' in so to speak,
    not nessecarily increasing riders innate ability,
    but in a way,at least making them a little more concious of what they may encounter.
     
  11. Merlin

    Merlin Old School Biker

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    Let me give you an example.

    Most of the RAF fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain were less than 25 years old. Teenagers haven't developed the sense of mortality at that age and that's why a lot of the pilots were 'gung ho' and went into battle without fear of death, as they thought that they were invincible. Pilots over the age of 25 were either Squadron Leaders or above or instructors and realised that they were mortal and tried to impress that onto the younger pilots.

    Motorcyclists have the same sense of immortality at the age of 16, unless they have seen a friend injured or killed as a result of their riding exceeding their ability to control the machine; they don't recognise the dangers that lurk out there. A CBT where they wobble around for a few hours isn't enough training by a long stretch - even Spitfire pilots got at least ten hours flying time on that machine after graduating from trainer planes, usually biplanes like Tiger Moths, before they went into combat. The current setup doesn't even give learners ten hours training on any 50 or 125 before turning them loose.

    One old biker told me once "When you put a helmet on, you enter the world of the invisible man - you should ride accordingly". I demand as much space on the road as a car, fuck being forced into the gutter - if I'm pissing a driver off, he knows that I'm there.
     
  12. Gemma

    Gemma Captain Spooky

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    But a 17 year old with SEP rating could fly a P-51D Mustang legally, if they could get the insurance :) No restriction exists on aircraft engine capacity once they pass the Skills Test at all.

    That's the difference, we are talking about restrictions that apply even after passing tests and proving a basic competence in machine handling with motorcycles. This system doesn't not apply to cars or even aircraft!
     
  13. Merlin

    Merlin Old School Biker

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    OK, but there's a World of difference between a 17-year old getting rated to fly a P-51 and another 17-year old wobbling around a few traffic cones and maybe an hour or two on the road with an instructor several bikes behind you. I doubt that the P-51 pilot would want to race his mates either!

    Learning to click a screen for a Hazard Perception Test doesn't prepare you for the gladiator arena that urban roads can be like, especially at rush hour.
     
  14. Gemma

    Gemma Captain Spooky

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    So is it an issue of more training and testing rather than age? How does CC restriction actually address the issue? In 9 years as a courier in London it was often having an excess of power to get out of trouble that kept me alive, rather than a lack of it. This was particularly true for example on at least three occasions where car drivers took it upon themselves to attempt to knock me off the bike on motorways.

    Don't get me wrong I can see your point of view too, my son is 16 and I do worry about him on today's roads. It was bad enough in my day, but these days car drivers seem totally zoned out regarding bikes, especially scooters. The answer though seems to be to give him a fighting chance, rather than restrict speed further.

    I'm just very negative about the current system. I've friends who have applied for the test and failed a dozen times. Yet when I ride with them they are perfectly competent.

    It just seem the current system is more engineered towards keeping people off two wheels rather than encouraging a safety culture.
     
  15. Gemma

    Gemma Captain Spooky

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    PS don't presume the P-51 pilot won't race his mates, I sure would lol.
     
  16. Merlin

    Merlin Old School Biker

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    The problem the P-51 guy would have is finding mates to race!! :p

    I would argue for more training, coupled with on the road experience with instructors to give them more confidence before they take the test. A rider who is truly serious about learning, instead of someone just prepared to do just enough to pass, makes all the difference and the problem is how to engage young riders and make them put the effort in, when they are used to instant gratification, i.e. the 'Playstation Generation' that gets mentioned so often.

    A 16-year old lad where I work bought a Piaggio NRG and seized it up by forgetting to add 2-stroke to it, then wanted it fixed instantly and de-restricted while it was being repaired. We all told him where to get off with that de-restriction idea and he eventually lost interest and sold it to a scooter shop as a basket case for them to repair, losing about £500 in the process. That's a really good example of what the Government are up against when it comes to training young riders - if they can't learn it in 15 minutes, they lose interest. A lot of modern kids have no span of attention when it comes to learning and that's worrying in the world of health and safety, let alone bikes and the road.
     
  17. Mark Emerson Trentham

    Mark Emerson Trentham Well Known Member. Staff Member

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    :eek: ,
    Bit early,yawn....,shift in 1/2 hr,anyhow's here's my tuppence for a few hours:-
    Having an opinion,an stating it in volume or at volume on esp.so vital an important issue as how you start otr initialy,
    is made even more important due to using forms of transport that would be considered outside the acceptable norm,
    I.E.,they're will always be an underlying negitivety towards m/cyclists due to sponsorship of it tacitly being considered as 'acceptable' 'deviant' behaviour,
    minor case in point for instance,..
    never seen a politico even so much commute to work on a cg125,sted of guzzling laid-on motor.... .
     
  18. scootzmadness

    scootzmadness Left the forum.

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    the reason theyve bought these restrictions in are simply because too many bikers were getting killed because they didnt know how to handle the bike.
    ill use one of my great friends who died last year as an example.
    not long passed his test. thought he was the dogs bollocks because he passed and jumped onto a 600. going home one night to his pregnant girlfriend. thought hed open the throttle up. came to a bend and couldnt slow down in time, hit a tree and died almost instantly. he jumped straight from a 125 onto a 600. he didnt have the experience he needed to slow down or control his bike. now im sorry but i think the test should me made harder and you should have a mininum of 20 hours training with a local school (im currently doing this), should also be made to work your way up in power size. going from a 125 to a 400 then to a 600 etc and should be made to do three different tests instead of it being the way it is now and being able to wait a few years then skip size groups.
    but then some of you are simply stuck in your - i passed my test 30 years ago mate and i passed because i rode round the block, the test is too hard.
    theyre not trying to force people off bikes or make it harder THEYRE TRYING TO MAKE IT SAFER AND STOP PEOPLE SUCH AS MY MATE NICKNAMED BIRDY FROM KILLING THEMSELVES WITH INEXPERIENCE.
     
  19. Mark Emerson Trentham

    Mark Emerson Trentham Well Known Member. Staff Member

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    Least you did'nt say,'stuck up your' . :) .,
    My position comes simply from being raised a confident,competent individual..generally-
    who was never brought up to assume the responsibilty of another person's actions.......
     
  20. scootzmadness

    scootzmadness Left the forum.

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    ive been raised to be sensible etc, ive ridden 600`s on private land under supervision of stepdad/someone whos been riding 30+ years and ive been told i could quite easily go pass my test now but im going through the lessons and then ill do my test, not only to learn more but to get used to the power etc.
    BUT i personally think the goverment are making a move in the right direction when it comes to licencing, i just think it should be forced to take seperate tests etc instead of you can do this at this age and that at that age. but i do think that 17 year olds who pass their test should be aloud to ride a 250cc.
     

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