Cpi aragon 50cc fitting 3rd 70 kit

Discussion in 'Scooter Tuning' started by Kyehead, Apr 4, 2017.

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2 70cc kits have blown , why?

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  1. Kyehead

    Kyehead New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Rides:
    Cpi aragon 50cc 2012
    Hi guys any help appreciated here,
    I have a cpi aragon 50cc 2012, was fully standard and did 40/45mph, then I brought a dellorto manual choke carb, but my bike wouldn't run with it, so after I left it brought a ramair foam air filter, new standard carb, ginallei race exhaust, jets, naraku 4.2g rollers, then a naraku 70cc kit, put everything on went up to a 105 jet, but my air screw is nearly all the way in that is the only place it will run without bogging so left it at that. I ran the kit in doing 35/40 then started to give it bit more about 3 weeks of running it in , then it went bang looked at the piston and the rings have seized and there 2 gauges bout 2mm thick next to each other got told it had done it due to getting hot and running lean but it couldn't be running lean I was putting 2 times of2 stroke oil in, also after 20/25 min riding it would just shut down on me doing around 45. Anyway I put my old 50 kit back on kept the 105 jet in then ordered another 70 kit fitted it then after just 2 days of riding slowish it blew again also it was making a tinging noise when revved, looked at the piston n it had done exactly the same seized rings n 2 gauges down the sides.. put 50 kit back on n ran it like that for 2 months now, but looking to buy another 70 kit but I don't want the same problem to happen again can anyone give me some advice on what to do or what am I doing wrong, thanks sorry it's so long
     
  2. Kyehead

    Kyehead New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Rides:
    Cpi aragon 50cc 2012
    Runs fine with no problems with my standard 50cc kit on, does seem to get very hot tho, should my air screw be nearly all the way in?
     
  3. Tamiyacowboy

    Tamiyacowboy Pippa's Owner

    Messages:
    1,850
    Rides:
    Piaggio Skipper
    Ok Kye

    first thing is forget the air mix screw at this moment in time, if you have scored up two kits already and fried them in the spate of X amount of weeks / months , you need to NOT fit a third at this time .....

    Have you split the cases and checked the crank for any signs of rings being swallowed, possible debris has been injested and getting thrown back into new kits ?

    NARAKU !!!! , Poor shit ........ im going to be honest here it may seem strong it its honest ..... your throwing money at crap cheap chinese made barrels that have porting copys of some other known branding of jugs and to be frank they aint worth piss , most of the guys are going to say grab yourself a malossi or a polini bore kit . loose the autolube system and run a direct to tank oil mixing 33:1 or around that.
    i even think Minor Confusion had a couple of these kits and ended up having to rework them due to the poor casting and cast mould leftovers in them , something you should not have to do buying a kit.

    My advice would be keep that 50cc jug on , propper amount of oil going into the tank/autolube system and save your pennys for a nice named brand of bore kit ...... at the same time look for a gear up kit ...... your running a 70cc kit on stock gearing its olny going to go so fast even with that extra 9-11PS your throwing at it , a gear up kit is going to allow you to use all that power over a longer gear ratio, ie its not going to be screaming its rings off at 45mph more like 60 mph and slighlty above.
    spend your money wise ..... yes i know those narakus are cheap and thats just it cheap iron crap what £60 for a kit then you look at a malossi and its like £140 theres a big reason buddy, huge amount of research gone into the more named brands with a decent piston and ring set thrown in for good measure .

    filter wise : clean that puppy out give that foam a good clean washing in fairy liquid and a good couple rinses off and drying out fully stick stock airbox back on back that airscrew out about 1.5 turns from seated in fully and save your pennys up for a nice kit, on you can proudly say to your mates " yeah its a lossi - polly onboard none of that cheap shizzle bruv's "
     
  4. Kyehead

    Kyehead New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Rides:
    Cpi aragon 50cc 2012
    Cheers For the reply, I don't want to go ahead and spend £140 on a malossi kit and then this same problem happen again, I haven't touched my crank or even looked at it , there is a rattle somewhere sounds like it's coming from the back end almost like a screw knocking around.. also what is a gear up kit?
    I no longer have my standard air box and I already got rid of the 2 stroke tank I put 3 shots of 2 stroke straight into my petrol tank
     
  5. Tamiyacowboy

    Tamiyacowboy Pippa's Owner

    Messages:
    1,850
    Rides:
    Piaggio Skipper
    3 shots is NOT enough, how much oil is one shot ?

    first off use a two stroke caulator to get the required amount of oil into the petrol. so your fill a 5lt jerry can with petrol and you want a lets say 33:1 ratio the calculator would throw out a ml reading of how much oil should be added to the petrol. so the above would require 152ml of oil to 5lt of fuel. to air on caution i would bump that to 155ml

    overheating : frying cylinders..... usually a newbie mistake of NOT adding enough oil to the petrol. the oil lubricates the crank / crank bearings / cylinder wall / piston rings / little end bearing ....... not enough oil means those parts dont get as much lubrication and at the rpms a cylinder produces that turns to heat and heat = expansion. your piston become larger due to the air/fuel being injected just cant help to cool the motor enough , the cranks bearings get hot they to expand and become more tighter adding more strain to the crank, same with the little end bearing it heats up, expands and starts to jam. YOU MUST measure out oil and add it to petrol , none of this tip a bit in and thats enough .... thats what kills your top ends.

    Open air filters, meh wish companys would stop pushing these, they are open so in winter and rain they just get clocgged up and filled with water that means you find bike runs crap in winter and wicked in summer .... not ideal for an all round ride . a stock airbox can be drilled a little to allow more flow of air but still have a good water resitant covering and allow the motor to draw air in still. open air filters allow to much air in and thats usually why your wound down hard on the air mix screw your unable to tune the idle speed because of this.

    first off ....... pop to a local cooking shop look for a measuring tub thats marked in ML and has atleast 200ml ...... work out how much oil you want i would go with 155 - 160ml thats gonna be around 33:1 mix ratio and drop that into 5lt of petrol . Next go grab a little bottle that will hold 160ml of oil and wont leak a good screw cap fitting. measure out 160ml of oil and throw it in your scooters seat bucket thats your oil shot for when you fill back up ;) always have an oilshot kept in bike no matter what.

    try find a stock airbox while your running this 50cc jug buddy "TRUST ME ON THIS " fit it and rejet carb down for that 105 jet ( 105 is to much for a 50cc cylinder) dont worry we can mod this stock airbox if you go with another bore kit ;)

    Now its upto you, if you wanna keep cheap by all means get another naraku kit but like above they are cheap so take this in mind. MAKE SURE you run the right amount of oil premix no half arsed thats enough i think guessing you ahve a measure jug and a shot bottle so use them wise ;) and i bet you dont fry jugs so quick either .

    My mates say !!! ...... mates say a lotta things but tuners know there shizzle listen to them they have gone through this stuff like you have and learnt from mistakes we all have smoked a jug in our time, screwed up and siezed a motor due to lean fuel ratio to air. installed aftermarket filters and push bike home because it wont start. if a mate says jump of a cliff you dont listen to them, if a mate says i put three shots in and its fine is that really true , a tuner will know whats sorta baseline oil ratio you wanna start with and the tweek on from there.

    ALways keep an eye on the motor, if it smells hot its hot , if its hot theres a problem be it a lean mix or not enough oil, we call twostrokes Twosmokers for a reason they should have a puff of smoke coming from the exhaust it shows your running a little rich and thats a good thing , running lean = blowing stuff up and that = a huge empty wallet .
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  6. Tamiyacowboy

    Tamiyacowboy Pippa's Owner

    Messages:
    1,850
    Rides:
    Piaggio Skipper
    Gear up kit :

    your stock gearbox has a set of gearings inside it, usually four cogs, two primarys and two secondarys. all together they make agearing ratio.
    a gear up kit usually replaces the secondary gear cogs usually something like a 14 tooth and a 46 tooth , what this now means is your overall gearing ratio is higher, a higher ratio with the HP from your new bore kit means your bike now has a higher top speed. a stock 50cc gearbox will tend to phase out at around 50mph . a gear up kit will allow a top speed of upto and over 60-70mph depending on horsepower of motor.

    a 70cc kit on a stock gearbox ........ you hammer the beans down balls to the wall, the bike hauls off in a power wheelie and you like OMF thats awesome , then you get to 45mph and your engines screaming max rpm but your not going any faster ? why ? your gear ratio is at its maxmium and your unable to push past that the 125 buddy flys past at 70mph and leaves you ashamed.


    a 70cc kit on a gear up , you wang the beans on the bike lifts up and hauls arse, your 0-40 is blistering BUT that 125 is gaining, you add more throttle your wide open and that needle shoots up and round now its off the clock and your estimating around 65-70mph that 125 is slowy gaining and will overtake but he aint gotta chance when your lower down take off is 100% better than his, there are limitations on auto gearboxes but we can cheat somehwat by swppping out the gearing to maximize that horsepower from the new kit and have a better top end speed .

    Thats what a gear up does, its a set of gears that extends your gear ratio so you can use all that HP and push a higher top speed.
     
  7. Kyehead

    Kyehead New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Rides:
    Cpi aragon 50cc 2012
    Right okay, so if I were to get another 70 kit get malossi, also a gear up kit (where can I get one of them?) also put 155ml of 2 stroke in my fuel tank my fuel tank holds 4.8L so 155ml will be fine yeah?
     
  8. Kyehead

    Kyehead New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Rides:
    Cpi aragon 50cc 2012
    So for now maybe for the next month or so , I will be running my 50 kit .. so you suggest I down jet from the 105 to what ?
    So,
    Standard 50 jug,
    Standard carb,
    Ramair foam air filter or my standard box if I can find it,
    What jet?? 105 in it at min,
    Ginallei race exhaust
    4.2 g rollers
     
  9. Tamiyacowboy

    Tamiyacowboy Pippa's Owner

    Messages:
    1,850
    Rides:
    Piaggio Skipper
    well if your running ok on the 105 jet with the standard 50cc cylinder keep it in. you wont see much in way of fuel savings with a huge jet size.

    to be honest your standard air filter was fine, but if your happy running the open air filter leave it on. 155ml premix oil is good , you want around the same when you fit a bigbore, maybe do a 160 premix with the larger bigbore later.

    malossi : its upto you yes the naraku are cheap but if you wnat to keep pennys on the more easy side by all means go with the cheaper bore kits but just keep in mind they are cheap. we cannot tell you what to buy we can obly offer advice and leave the choice to you.
    gear up kit you will need to do some research on this for your bike aka google searching with cpi aragon gear up kit

    ALWAYS remember a scooter needs three things and they must be in a ratio, AIR - FUEL -OIL . you can tell how the motor is running by looking at the sparkplug , if its black its running to rich - if its a white colour its to lean - if its a chocolate brown colour its perfect .

    the forum is a huge source of infomation i would take your time and search other posts on members rides and what they have done, reading what others done and what they found out helps you and gives you an inside into tuning small engines , if you have a question even if you think its a daft question pop a post up , dont be afraid no question is dumb or stupid . if your unsure on how to do something pop up a post and ask .

    see how the bike runs now as it is set up, if you find its drinking fuel and wanna cut back on that we can help and advise , running sluggy we can help and advise, but we cannot tell you what to buy only give you facts and figures everything comes down to you the owner and rider
     
  10. Kyehead

    Kyehead New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Rides:
    Cpi aragon 50cc 2012
    Right, just dug out my standard air filter out the shed, put it on and it was ticking over really high dropped the Tickover when 1 n half turns out on the air screw was revving up fine,also smoking a lot more, and ticking over sounded really smooth compared to my foam filter, went to take it for a ride and it was like it wouldn't pull me revving really low n not going anywhere messed around with the air screw further out further in but still wouldn't run right, so I put my foam filter back on have to have the air screw about 1 full turn out any further it won't tickover. So left it like that for now. This is still with a 105 jet but after few runnings my air filter does get wet with petrol also every night in the morning there's a patch of petrol so think it may be over fueling
     
  11. Kyehead

    Kyehead New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Rides:
    Cpi aragon 50cc 2012
    Also another 2 questions,
    I have brought that manual choke now how do i use it lol?

    Also I have a 125cc Chinese 4 stroke project, got new starter for it now I can chuck some fuel down past the manifold and it will fire up for a min and I have cleaned all the carb out fuel is getting there but it just won't go?
     

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  12. Kyehead

    Kyehead New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Rides:
    Cpi aragon 50cc 2012
    Is this the thing I'm looking for seems to be the only one for my bike?
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Tamiyacowboy

    Tamiyacowboy Pippa's Owner

    Messages:
    1,850
    Rides:
    Piaggio Skipper
    thats a gear up kit kye

    give racing planet a email/call and make sure it fits the cpi aragon first buddy , you wont be able to fit it yourself you need a good heavy duty press, the bigger gear cog is pressed onto your spline shaft in gearbox but first you have to press the old one off.

    manual choke buddy that version is a screw in type , if your bike has an electric choke fitted you WILL NOT be able to fit the screw in type choke you will need one that fits autochoke carbs ;) . when installed you pull the black top up and the choke is open, push it down and the choke closes :)

    Fourstroker :

    check the exhaust and inlet valve gaps buddy , ( ontop of the engine head is a cover, undo that and under it you will see the cam shaft and the cam shaft rockers, theres some adjusters ontop of the cam rocker tappets they need to be adjusted and you need some feeler gauges to set them to the correct slackness. if these are either to loose or to tight it can cause the motor to rattle or they open and close at wroong time and motor wont run or stay running.

    check fuel pump is working, pop off the fuel pipe to the carb pop it into a jar/pot and flip the starter button or kickstart a few times you should see fuel come out, if not it could be a vacuum pipe blocked or has a hole/split in it ;)
     
  14. Kyehead

    Kyehead New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Rides:
    Cpi aragon 50cc 2012
    I wouldn't know how to fit the gear up kit myself but will hope to get one soon n get a professional to fit it for me..

    And yeah it is a 21mm dellorto, do I just screw it in? Then I'm guessing pull the black plastic on top and that is choke on and let go would be choke off? I have only ever used carbs with electric chokes but I brought the dellorto to use with my first 70 kit but never got round to fitting it.

    There was a split in the vaccum but is now replaced, yeah the fuel pump is working as when you try to turn it over it's chucking fuel through, will have to take the head off and take a look
     

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