Advice

Discussion in 'General Scooter Discussion' started by JoJo, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. JoJo

    JoJo Active Member

    Messages:
    671
    Rides:
    Honda MSX
    The spring for the rear Calliper/Break Pads, does it matter which way it goes?
    obviously the bevel has to go inwards, but does it matter whether the larger bit goes at the top of bottom? on my old photos it showed the large bit at the bottom, but just watching a YouTube video it showed it on the top, so wondering if theres a right way?

    also the bit of metal on the front Calliper, that sits between the Calliper/Break Pads/Disc, this was the reason for the noise I had awhile ago, certain turns of the wheel was hitting that bit of metal up, well... its doing it again but seems to be more constant now, wondering whether its actually needed? it doesnt sit flush, its loose etc, when everything is on... you can pull that bit of metal out abit and so on, only thing that stops it from coming all the way out is a lip on the side that sits in a slot on the Calliper, but again its loose and now just rattles etc all the time, really annoying as I can now hear it when riding fast where as before it was just when I slowed down to a stop (no breaks being used).

    Also my back brake still aint working, bled it for ages, went through a bottle of brake fluid, I kept the pipe/cable off all night before as I was waiting for the Calliper to dry (after spraying it), but put it all back on, new Universal Master Cylinder, bled it for ages, but still doesnt seem to work.
     
  2. ramo

    ramo GoldMember

    Messages:
    1,572
    Pics would be handy lol. The bit that was making noise in the caliper might be the bit that keeps the pads aligned? You want it in there if so..

    Bleeding brakes from dry is always a pain in the arse in my experience tbh..You should be noticing the lever getting slightly harder as time goes on if youre doing it right but be prepared to spend atleast a solid hour or so getting it perfect from when you start to notice its getting better. A bit of fuel hose or something on the caliper does help too.
     
  3. JoJo

    JoJo Active Member

    Messages:
    671
    Rides:
    Honda MSX
    The part in the Calliper was mentioned on here before but cant remember what it was called, its the pin bit, but again its loose so abit weird, thought it would of needed to be secure, I originally thought maybe the Brake Disc was slightly warped causing it to hit the pin inside, but there's a new Disc on it, it was ok for awhile but now seems to be alot more constant and now can hear it when riding properly...

    1.jpg

    regarding the Brakes, I was there for quite awhile doing it, I have a proper bleeding tube which I used, a little annoying having to bleed it for awhile, then put the nipple cap back on and screw it then pump the break and then have it still not work and undo it all and bleed it more etc etc etc, at one point the lever got abit tighter, but then I went out on it and it went back to being loose, both Master Cylinders were replaced, one is a Universal and the other is from the Speedfight Scooters, the Speedfight one works fine, didnt have to bleed it, but the Universal one just doesnt seem to want to work....

    still got problems with the whole back Calliper, still rubbing alot, i've had to put washers on between the Calliper and Bracket otherwise the Disc was rubbing against the actual inside of the Calliper, but yeah.. its just constant rubbing on the Pads now, abit annoying as its quite loud.
     
  4. JoJo

    JoJo Active Member

    Messages:
    671
    Rides:
    Honda MSX
    anyone know what its called?
     
  5. ramo

    ramo GoldMember

    Messages:
    1,572
    Sorry forgot to check this :oops: Did you get it sorted out in the end?

    Brake pad retaining clip I think its called..not sure if they do them separately if thats what you're after.
     
  6. JoJo

    JoJo Active Member

    Messages:
    671
    Rides:
    Honda MSX
    Its louder now, really annoying, tried to belt the side bit abit so it secures it more but still the same, not sure whats hitting it and why...... regarding the back, still rubs on the Caliper so i've left the Washers in still, now just rubs loud on the Pads, annoying!!!

    Back Brake still dont work, bled it alot but still nothing so going to get it pressure bleeded, see if that works.
     
  7. Stevep

    Stevep Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,895
    Is the brake piston moving in and out when you press the brake lever?
    It should move out very easily, up to about 6mm. If it isn't then the piston in the caliper is siezed and it needs to be stripped and new seals, possibly new piston.
    Also, there is absolutely no way on this planet, that any part of the caliper should be touching any other part of the braking system, especially the disc.
    There are two parts to the caliper, a fixed half and a floating half. Have a look at the two large pins, top and bottom, not the fixing screws, the pins with the rubber boots around them, and see if they move freely into the other half. These are called sliders, and they do just that. They slide into and out of the fixed half of the caliper, applying pressure onto the disc via the pads each time you squeeze the lever. If they are not moving either then there is a build up of dirt/crap on the pegs that needs to be cleaned thoroughly and greased.
     
  8. ramo

    ramo GoldMember

    Messages:
    1,572
    Is it rattling or grinding etc? And is it always? Its strange cos theres not really alot of moving parts on the caliper to make odd noises.. The little metal bit should hold tight against the top of the pads and not having it there would probs make movement and noises more likely but there isnt alot of room for odd noises either way

    Did you notice if the pistons in the back caliper behind the pads are going all the way in by any chance? And are they moving the pads the same amount? Might be whats causing the rubbing if not and would need a rebuild if so. Is the wheel done up as tight as it should be too? A little bit of rubbing with new pads or even slightly used ones isnt unsual tbh but it sounds like something might be out of alignment possibly
     
  9. Stevep

    Stevep Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,895
    Could also be the disc is warped.
     
  10. JoJo

    JoJo Active Member

    Messages:
    671
    Rides:
    Honda MSX
    Discs are brand new, front and back..... back is Kyoto, front is EBC

    and the thin metal bit (whatever its called) that slides in is always loose, I have a photo of it in a previous post ^^ up there, I got my brother to push the back of the Bike down so I could spin the front wheel and doing it slowly you could see where it would catch at certain parts of a turn, thats when I replaced the Disc, I then tried again and it seemed fine, but now all of a sudden its back again and even more constant and louder as I can now hear it when riding, i'll get my brother to push the back down again and have a look, or I might just take the Caliper off and try my other Pads in there and see if that helps anything.....

    and yes the Pistons move in and out of the Caliper easily, I cleaned all the bits of paint from them earlier aswell but putting everything back together again earlier the brake just seems even more weak, so bled it more, well tried to, went through a Cylinder of fluid but nothing came out of the bleeder pipe, so abit confusing, will take it to get pressure bled at a garage soon, hopefully that'll sort it.

    The front Caliper with the metal bit isnt too much of a problem as its just noise, fair enough something is hitting something which obv needs sorting but to pass the MOT I need to get the back brake sorted more than anything and im completely stumped on why its not working, so yeah hopefully the pressure bleeding will work.

    Oh and the Pistons go all the way in easily just by pushing them back with my fingers and easily come out aswell, the Wheel went back as far as possible, the nut went back on fine, and then I had to slide the thin metal strip through the thread which holds the nut cover on, all that seems ok, but obviously something there is wrong as when the Caliper is tightened to the bike bracket... it touches the disc to the point where the wheel wont even turn, hence having to put the washers in, but then the bracket is fitted to the bike properly, its just 2 bolts so its all a little weird.
     
  11. Stevep

    Stevep Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,895
    So, if you went through a cylinder full of fluid and nothing came out the end of the pipe, then that says that it needs more fluid than the cylinder holds to bleed it properly. Scooter master cylinders are really small considering what they do, so try this first:

    Engage the help of your brother to open and close the bleed screw.

    Fill the master cylinder
    Open the bleed screw
    GENTLY, SLOWLY......squeeze the brake lever in but not so far that it touches the grip, about 3/4 of its travel
    Hold the lever in that position and close the bleed screw
    GENTLY, SLOWLY..................release the lever, at the same time watching the fluid level in the cylinder. You should see it drop slightly, not much but it is noticeable.
    NOW, squeeze the lever in HALF WAY, hold it there, then open the bleed screw, and squeeze it in to 3/4, hold it there and close the bleed screw.
    GENTLY, SLOWLY............release the lever. Watch the fluid level.

    Do this 3 times then top up the cylinder.

    Repeat the above until the pressure is good.

    Note: DO NOT LET THE FLUID LEVEL GO DOWN MORE THAN HALF WAY IN THE CYLINDER RESERVOIR
    If the fluid in the cylinder gets to the bottom it will introduce more air into the brake line and you will have to start again.

    You might think I'm telling you how to suck eggs, i'm not, but there is an art to bleeding brakes properly, and it gets worse the more calipers you have on one wheel.

    As a general rule, for a hydraulic brake, the lever shouldn't travel more than 1/3 back to the handlebars before applying pressure to the pads. In other words, at half pull of the lever, it should throw you over the top.:mad:

    Let us know how you get on
     
    ramo likes this.
  12. ramo

    ramo GoldMember

    Messages:
    1,572
    Usually the pin should literally force the metal bit down and it shouldnt be able to move once everthings all together. If its not doing that and theres movement then the pads touching it (and moving a bit when the disk moves them too) could be part of whats making noise? Im sure you said it did it even without it in though which makes it a bit more confusing lol

    Assuming the brakes are working okish, the pads catching the disk isnt a real problem especially if theyre both new. Usually it takes a good few hundred miles atleast before ether of them even start to look used tbh and even after that theyll still touch a bit..maybe its a self cleaning thing..not sure. If theyre working tho its mostly not an issue in itself...

    And the whole brake setup needs alot more than a cylinder full of fluid! In fact, to get it bang on, once fluid starts coming out the bleed screw on the caliper you need to stil put more in. When i did it on my zip from empty a few months back i got through most of a 1l bottle and that was a front (where the hose is about half the length of the back one). Most the time itll seem like its not doing anything for a good while, then itll get a bit better and stay like that for ages, then itll get worse, then your hands will kill, then its gets back to a bit better then gradually itll start to get to a goodish pressure..by then you can easily be over an hour in if youre filling the whole thing. It just takes ages its one of those things. It would probs help to have someone to help with the lever pressing and screw opening thing seeing as theyre so far apart on the bike

    Did you use extra washers anywhere else apart from the caliper by any chance? Is the space on either side equal with the washers on aswell? If it works with washers then so be it.. if its wildy off without them then theres probably something overlooked somewhere really
     
  13. Stevep

    Stevep Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,895
    Ramo, is it me or does this sound like the caliper fixing bolts are too long and passing all the way through to the point of touching the disc and locking the wheel? Hence the reason for the washers??

    "Quote": but obviously something there is wrong as when the Caliper is tightened to the bike bracket... it touches the disc to the point where the wheel wont even turn, hence having to put the washers in, but then the bracket is fitted to the bike properly, its just 2 bolts so its all a little weird.
     
  14. ramo

    ramo GoldMember

    Messages:
    1,572
    Could be actually. Good call.

    Its annoying cos if youre not properly familiar with how it all goes together theres so many little things it could be and alot of them might seem too obvious to ask about or check for but im sure theres alot of people on here who could have a look at in person and solve it in about 10 minutes :p
     
  15. JoJo

    JoJo Active Member

    Messages:
    671
    Rides:
    Honda MSX
    I've already checked the Bolts, they dont touch the Disc....
    and I didnt use Washers anywhere else, it was basically putting the Bracket back onto the Bike with 2 Bolts, and then putting the Exhaust onto the Bike and Bracket, no Washers used, so its a little weird, its to the point where without putting Washers between the Caliper/Bracket, the Disc touches the inside of the Caliper so much that the Wheel wont move, yet the Disc was put back onto the Bike the same way with the same Bolts....

    Just come back from the Bike Shop, they tried to Pressure Bleed it, took 3 of them to try and sort it but still nothing, the main guy said the Pistons are probably seized, yet I took them out myself 2 days ago and they're spotless, so not sure why else it aint braking...? if the Pistons are pushed in, and you pump the Lever, the Pistons come out easily, but its like there isnt much pressure for them to actually stop the Wheel as good as it should.

    Regarding the Pin in the front Caliper, its never really been secure tight, i've taken the Caliper off and changed the Pads but still that Pin isnt secure and rattles (new Disc on that front Wheel aswell)
     
  16. JoJo

    JoJo Active Member

    Messages:
    671
    Rides:
    Honda MSX
    Here are photos i've just taken of the Caliper and Cylinder, i've taken the Panel off the Bike aswell to make sure the Pipe wasnt bent/jammed but it seems fine, not sure what else to try, any suggestions? (insides look abit rusty but the outsides were fine on the Pistons)

    IMG_3942.jpg IMG_3943.jpg IMG_3944.jpg IMG_3945.jpg IMG_3946.jpg
     
  17. JoJo

    JoJo Active Member

    Messages:
    671
    Rides:
    Honda MSX
    Just took the Caliper apart and the Pistons out... cant see anything wrong.... so why isnt it breaking :-/ (also a pic of the Disc touching the Caliper inside, still have no clue why its doing this as everything was put on as it was)

    IMG_3948.JPG IMG_3949.jpg IMG_3950.JPG IMG_3951.JPG IMG_3952.JPG IMG_3947.JPG
     
  18. JoJo

    JoJo Active Member

    Messages:
    671
    Rides:
    Honda MSX
    Just tried to bleed it again, 1 bubble came out of the tube but then every time I pulled the lever, fluid would just freely come from the tube, tightened the nut back up and put the cover back on, pumped the lever more but still nothing... everything was clean etc, nothing blocking any holes in the Caliper, so again, not sure why it isnt working.

    IMG_3953.jpg IMG_3954.jpg
     
  19. Stevep

    Stevep Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,895
    Ok, questions.
    Has this bike always had this problem?
    When did you first notice it?
    Have you replaced the caliper at any stage?
     
  20. JoJo

    JoJo Active Member

    Messages:
    671
    Rides:
    Honda MSX
    The Brake was working fine until I had to take the Brake Line off to Spray the Caliper (its a new Universal Cylinder), and I didnt do anything else with the Caliper, took it off, sprayed it, let it dry, put it back on, connected the line, and then nothing.
     

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